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For more on the Majors PT Elements and PT Inventory go to www.aureliuspress.com/assessments.

Gary Monti with Aurelius Press continues the interview with Dr. Mark Majors with regards to Carl Jung, his approach to therapy, and the relationship to psychological assessments.

00:48 Review of Jung and Assessments: Foundations – Part 1. The topics discussed in part one are reviewed. This includes the origins of the assessments created by Mark along with the approach that Carl Jung took and Isabel Myers approach. Mark emphasizes how young focused on what was observable and patterns within those observations versus theory. The importance of avoiding what Mark calls “theoretical punishment” is emphasized.

03:33 Avoid the Guru trap: Life of Brian. The review concludes with Mark’s comments on avoiding the “Guru Trap,” which Mark expands upon.

04:45 Theory has its place. While theory has its place, it is important to remember that the unfocused on the observable and associated patterns. The function of theory is to serve those observations rather than replace them and predict what an individual “is about” without making a direct connection. There is a risk of falsify the individuals life.

06:09 Traits vs Motivation: the risk of introducing bias. The discussion turns towards the importance of paying attention to the client’s motivations in order to better understand how to help them improve versus simply observing traits in making judgments as to how best to put those traits to work. The individual interpreting the assessment results needs to connect directly with the client to avoid making erroneous judgments and risk being abusive.

08:25 Trait bias: an example.

09:08 Interpretation bias and ethics. it is important that the client the results and interpretation of the assessment. Traits may in fact be based upon coping mechanisms that are unhealthy for the client.

10:15 Majors PT Elements (PTE)-personality formation scores: empathy & ethics. Mark shares how the personality formation scores in the Majors PT Elements can be used to ensure the client is treated empathetically and fairly.

11:33 Psychometric- and theoretical narcissism. A danger is present when an assessor assumes they can draw conclusions about the client without checking in with them. No serious perfect.

12:09 Advice to practitioners new to assessments. At the center of this work is the individual who is then surrounded with the tools and assessments. It is important for the assessor to develop their own process, which takes time.

14:44 Intentionality. Mark continues with his advice to the new practitioner. The practitioner must consciously decide how the assessment will be used. The individual must always be the focus of attention without the assessor being by theory or the assessor’s own personal experiences. There is a need to continually check with the individual for accuracy.

15:38 MPTE wealth of information/formulating questions/possible pathways. Use the scores from the personality formation portion of the Majors PT Elements to formulate questions that facilitate the client opening up and stating the extent to which they connect with the assessment results as well as what those results mean to them. Our job is to offer possible hypotheses regarding the road they would like to take. Don’t declare, ask questions, be humble.

18:18 Taking your own journey to help your clients. The importance of the assessor going through their own therapeutic process is emphasized.

21:21 The limits of free assessments/“coffee shop” conversations/ discipline. When the connection is established the conversation becomes more personal and may appear to be informal but the reality is the assessor is bringing to bear their discipline in humility to help the client go within and explore himself.

23:01 Discipline/Intentionality/Humility. The discipline of intentionality is expressed through the humility of the professional. All behaviors are focused on the intentionality of helping the client. An authoritarian approach is damaging to the client. Being authoritarian puts the focus on the assessor rather than the client.

26:28 Theory abuse. Putting the theory and assessment before the client adds to the damage done by the authoritarian approach.

27: 21 The business world: change managers, assessments, character traits. The courage required to stay with the intentionality when working in the business world is discussed.

28:33 Transaction-oriented clients vs. the unfolding of understanding. The inherent conflict between the process oriented approach of counseling and the transaction approach typically found in business is discussed.

28:48 The impact of 3rd party payment

 – Payback expectations with limited sessions

– Working with conflicting intentionalities: bottom line vs healthy. The conflict inherent with the transaction approach is exacerbated frequently by limitations placed by third-party payers.

34:30 PTE enhances the brief therapeutic process. The benefits of using the Majors PT Elements in these conflicted situations are explained. In a limited-session environment having not only the type but also the personality formation scores along with real-time measurement of the eight majors-Jungian processes provides information otherwise not available, information which can help the client oriented and decide what direction to take in terms of behavioral changes that are in their best interest.

39:57 Client ownership of issues vs deferring to the therapist. Some clients are able to benefit well from the limited number of sessions when sufficient information has been provided. The important thing is they own their situation and choose to put the information to work. It is critical to the client avoids turning responsibility for their growth over to the therapist.

40:39 Dr. Dick Thomson’s research: work vs home Type.   http://www.hpsys.com/About_DrThompson.htm Individuals can display two distinct types, one at home and want to work. Understanding this and integrating the information is critical for health.

41:22 Advice for neophyte counselors: intellect vs empathy. It is better for people this work to focus on maintaining humility in developing a sense of empathy and not over-focus on intellectual mastery of the theory, assessment, and methods. It is important to use the information to look for opportunities where the information can be used to support the client in the unfolding of their understanding of themselves.

43:16 Transaction-oriented clients vs. the individual’s unfolding of understanding (con’t.). It is important for the assessor to be prepared to offer the benefits of a process-oriented approach in a transactional environment. There is a definite return on investment. Specifically, the process of allowing the clients to develop an understanding of themselves can be brought back to the workplace where it can aid in changing the way work is executed to the betterment of the organization.

45:14 Ipsitive prognoses vs unfolding in team setting. Mark discusses the benefit of using the information to show the need for change by using ipsitive approach, which has to do with dealing with the extremes in the Majors-Jungian processes.

46:45 The power of the MPTE and the eight Majors-Jungian process scores. An example of the ipsitive approach in an organization is provided. Individuals at some level no the changes needed but the information provided by the Majors PT Elements provides a basis to create a healthy challenge. It freezes them in their tracks and gets them to consider changing behaviors. Progress is based on those with the power having the courage to take your hands off the system and allow healthier behavior to unfold.

48:55 Ipsitive defined. Mark provides a formal definition of the ipsitive approach. The two highest and to lowest Majors-Jungian process scores are used for each individual to show the greatest ranks and weaknesses and how, as a team, the organization behaves. It provides a high level of predictability as to what to anticipate behaviorally. This serves as the basis for bringing about change.

50:44 Speak plainly. Avoid getting caught up in theory. Rather than being an evangelist for the theory, which can create confusion, it is important to speak to the individuals in terms of what they are saying about themselves in a manner that the lay person could understand. Most people are not interested in becoming a type-savvy individual.

51:22 Jung, “Use Type to help people rather than teach Type theory.” Jung was not interested in educating people about psychological Type. He was simply interested in helping people help themselves. An example is provided.

53:40 When To You Stop With a Client. When ownership of issues has reached a plateau it is time to take a break and possibly revisit sometime in the future. One sign of needing to take a break is the therapist, change manager, or life coach is experiencing increased stress and a significant drop in energy. One of the best ways to test for this is to bring up a specific issue that needs to be addressed and see whether or not the client will take ownership.

1:00:10 CONCLUSION

For more on the Majors PT Elements and PT Inventory go to www.aureliuspress.com/assessments.

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Podcast: Play in new window | Download

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For more on the Majors PT Elements and PT Inventory go to www.aureliuspress.com/assessments.

00:26 Introducing Dr. Mark Majors, PhD. Today were talking with the Jungian psychologist Dr. Mark Majors who in addition to being a counselor and therapist is also a psychometrician who has developed several type assessments based on Carl Jung’s work.

02:29 Origins of the Majors assessments.  Mark discusses the origins of the assessments he created. It started with reading Carl Jung’s work in depth rather than summary statements made by other authors. He emphasizes the importance of chapter 10 in Jung’s seminal book “Psychological Types.” He wanted to add the missing elements back into the Type world. Mark focuses on the fact that in the Introduction Jung states, “I observed…” which means he focused on information that lends itself to the psychometric. This includes Type as well as the mental processes which Mark refers to as the Majors-Jungian mental processes. This led to the creation of questions in marks assessments based on the observable.

06:25 Isabel Myers influence.  Isabel Myers, while not being a psychometrician, was looking for observable evidence to support her work on the mental processes. She settled for the 16 types.

08:07 Theory vs Observable.  Mark shares his thoughts on the significance of theory versus observing patterns. Mark proceeds to discuss Jung’s approach, his own, and the impact on assessments. He references the fact that the title of your’s book is, “Psychological Types,” NOT, “The Theory of Psychological Type.” Rather than theory, Mark’s focus is on quantifying what Jung said regarding each of the eight mental functions.

This is contrasted with the static model of dominant, auxiliary, tertiary, etc.

Jung felt that individuals are very dynamic and that they can change how they work with their mental functions as they go through life. Could be healthy or could be unhealthy but the reality remains that people are flexible in how they choose to go through life.

14:15 Majors-Jungian Processes Real Time Assessment.  In light of this, Mark felt he had to come up with a more real-time measurement of the eight processes in addition to the components of the static model, i.e., the four dichotomous types, e.g., ENFP.

The value of using the eight Majors-Jungian process scores to evaluate a person’s progress over time is emphasized.

16:24 Therapy: Whole Type, personality formation, 8 Majors-Jungian Processes (MJP)-real time.  The conversation shifts to the realities of therapeutic sessions where it’s potentially more advantageous to start with personality formation which is the second part of the Majors PT Elements. Mark developed the personality formation portion of the assessment directly from his understanding of Jung’s intentions.

Marks application of personality formation has two components, perseverance, where the individual indicates how much they rely on self, and adaptation which shows the extent to which the individual relates to other people. He goes on to explain how the scores in this particular area of the Majors PT Elements help the therapist to determine questions that can be asked of the individual as to how they have chosen to walk through life in both dealing with themselves and with others.

23:07 Therapy: Direct connection. The therapist can make a direct connection using the personality formation scores.

23:54 Therapy: Theoretical punishment.  The term “Theoretical Punishment” is described along with the need to simply listen to the individuals story as to how they have adapted rather than project the consequences of a given model.

The goal is to find a way to help them improve the way they respond to and adapt to life to help them feel better rather than to pull the rug out from under them and “take them to the woodshed.”

So, starting with the story via the personality formation scores without any theory in the way will help the client find their path. That is what is behind the development of the Majors assessments.

26:24 Therapy: Static models.  With only the static model all we can do is look and guess. This is where theories are at risk for going astray.

29:17 The Importance of Psychometrics and Observable Reality. Consequently, the psychometric portion of question development is very important so that a valid connection is made with the individual in order accurately measure what can be observed.

In line with this he talks about the development of the majors PTI back in 2001 including the alpha coefficients and validity along with the search for best fit.

The key point is the assessments are based on fit with observational reality first and the psychometrics second in contrast to a lot of other assessments were the primary focus is psychometrics.

32:56 Psychometric Arrogance and Error. Psychometric arrogance and psychometric error can occur when the focus is on a best-fit psychometric approach at the end of a workshop rather than sitting with the individual as a first step to insure there is a genuine connection with the assessments results.

An example is given of the real life, flesh-and-blood common reality that is at the core we are trying to get to when using assessments. The psychometrician is saddled with trying to quantify these very human experiences and putting a label on it. One must tread very lightly and carefully.

During training sessions Mark encourages attendees to focus on and push the storytelling rather than getting caught up in the assessment itself.

In developing the PTI and PTE Mark always had in mind using the assessments to get to the story.

Working in this manner puts humanity into the instruments.

41:00  Assessment As Story Guide.  The personality formation scores than the eight Majors-Jungian process scores will give a good “read” on what is going on in the person’s life today separate from what their static Type is.

A specific example of how this works is given.

45:20 Development of the 8 MJP Process Scores.  The discussion moved on to the development of the eight Majors-Jungian process scores. It took Mark a decade to develop the eight process course. He explains the “frontier” work that was required. It all comes back to getting the story.

49:07 Real World Application of 8 MJPs. Mark talks about the real world application of the results of using his assessments with the 8 Majors-Jungian Process scores to help people, for example, improve their performance at work.

51:07 Uniqueness of 8 MJP. Mark points out that only his assessments measure the eight Majors-Jungian processes directly. Application in therapeutic sessions as well as during life coaching events is discussed. This includes being able to re-administer the assessment over time to see how the client is progressing, standing still, or falling back.

53:02 Intentionality, Use of Assessments, and The Guru Trap. An emphasis is placed on avoiding getting caught up in the tool in any theory associated with it. It’s all about making a connection. It’s about helping the person with what they want help with rather than pushing the assessor’s agenda. The potential trap of a “guru philosophy” and the harm that can cause is explained.

The purpose of the tool (assessment)  is only to help the client gain a better understanding of himself in order to decide what to do. This is in contrast to the clinician deciding what is best for the client. Rather, the clinician/life coach/change manager can work to help the client discover what needs to be seen rather than forcing it upon them.

What can work better is more of a Rogerian approach where the client innately has a sense of what’s best for them and the assessor’s job is to help bring that to the conscious mind to be worked with.

A humorous example is given of an “I’m the boss and know what’s best” approach that was frustrating and wasted a lot of energy. It is better to have humility, empathy, and understanding to encourage the individual to move in a direction that is in their best interest.

1:01:28 Pop Psychology and Free Assessment.  The challenges of pop-psych “assessments” are discussed and compared to the validated results one can get with the Majors assessments.

For more on the Majors PT Elements and PT Inventory go to www.aureliuspress.com/assessments.

Your feedback is important. Choose from the following options:

• Click on “Send Voicemail” over to the right,
• place a review in iTunes,
• click on “leave a comment” below,
• send any comments along with your name to comments@thriveandconnect.com or
• call us at 614-664-7650.

Listen to future episodes for our reply.